Dear Faithful Scientists and other interested LAF&SF members-
As always, our discussions are interesting. I am grateful that we have faithful people here, who find comfort and confidence in both faith and science.
The striking difference in your understanding of God as discussed in the topic of “astrobiology” and the book titled Astrobiology and Christian Doctrine by Andrew Davison, (which largely pulls together statements and analysis from a variety of religious scholars and philosophers) and the discussion within our group, has caused me some reflection.
I found the discussions shocking! The distance I see between the foundational beliefs (or disbeliefs) about the nature of God of our largely “Christian” group and the statements within the Bible are breathtaking. Maybe more shocking even than the John Haupt lectures.
My participation in our group has provided the stimulus and method for me to critically examine what I believe, how I “know” my beliefs, and why I believe them. I have carefully prepared several talks: “Adam’s origin and purpose”, “Confidence and Uncertainty in Faith and Science”, and “Science Authenticates the Book of Mormon”. I have had to carefully and rigorously investigate the foundations of my beliefs and their intersection with the physical world of science, and with principles of academic thought. Three key parts of that study reside in these questions:
1. How can I understand foundational statements of faith or of science so as to find intersection between them. I find that in both areas, there is often a layer of interpretation interposed between statements and meaning. That layer must be identified and understood.
2. It is critical to understand the source of the knowledge. Is it authoritative? Often “knowledge” is speculative, and includes assumptions, which soften under examination.
3. Is there missing information that would fundamentally change my understanding? (Like embedded magnetic fields in geology revealing plate tectonics)
It will also be interesting to discuss the foundations of legacy Christian beliefs and their intersection with science and academic thought.
We as a group of scientists (and others who desire to use a scientific approach to faith), have some specific tools that enable us to examine our world and our beliefs. One of these is to be able to trace the origins and foundations of our knowledge and understanding. (Point 2 above)
The fact of that distance between the Bible itself, and the legacy Christianity of our group, and of the scholars Davison cites, is amply demonstrated by the statements made in our discussion during Morrie’s talk, that:
⁃ God is not physical, has no image,
⁃ that man/woman were not created, with intent, by God, or in His image,
⁃ When I mentioned the account of an entrapment attempt on Christ: when He was asked whether Jews should pay tribute to Rome, Jesus specifically used the foundational view of man being in the image of God to deflect the attack:
⁃ Mark 12: 15-17 Shall we give, or shall we not give (the taxation assessment to Rome)? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, “Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.” And they brought it. And he saith unto them, “Whose is this image and superscription?” And they said unto him, Cæsar’s. And Jesus answering said unto them, “Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” What do we render to God? Those who were created in His image, His children!
⁃ Mary Ann, an Episcopal priest, said, “oh, that was about something else” …, also, “God is like a thought” (vice being physical).
TESTAMENT: The value of the Bible, unlike many other books of beliefs, is that it is a witness, a testament. It does not just have statements of belief, it recounts historical events, which were witnessed and written down. It explicitly states that the miraculous events it recounts are evidence of the authority of Jesus, the Apostles, and Prophets. Disbelievers have eroded confidence in the Bible by making claims that it (Old Testament or the New Testament) was not written at the time of the events, that the recorded events were fabricated, elaborated, etc. Such statements erode a basis for confidence in the Bible. If you do not believe its testimony to the miraculous, there is no point in believing any of it. It is either true, or it is a fabrication. “Faith promoting” fictions are irrelevant.
Because of the miraculous experiences Israel had from God, intended to impress on them of His power and allegiance to the obedient: in the division of the Red Sea, the plagues on Egypt, the backed up Jordan river providing dry passage into Canaan; the miraculous fall of Jericho, etc.; Israel could go forward in confidence to conquer Canaan, and anticipate a great future!
Because Elijah really broke the long drought, called fire down from heaven, raised a boy from death; because Gideon really received a definite answer to his uncertainly; because of David’s miraculous victory over Goliath, etc., Israel was able to go forward.
Because Jesus really turned water into wine, healed the sick, raised the dead, and received a resurrected, immortal, and eternal body after dying by crucifixion, we have reason to believe Him and act on His world-changing teachings of faith, obedience, and sociability, and trust His plan for the future of this world.
The authenticity of the Bible is being debated, and has been under attack for a long time, by doubters, using the tools of skeptical academia. Archeologists and ancient language scholars continue to pore over sites and records that are gradually coming to light. Increased understanding of the span of time covered by the Bible, and subsequent centuries, is changing our views of the setting and circumstances of Biblical events. However, these studies are still not definitive, but trend in support of the authenticity of the Bible account.
ANOTHER TESTAMENT: However, the deeply-Christian Book of Mormon had long been prepared, through the planning and foreknowledge of God, specifically to persuade the people of our day to believe the Bible. It was given to us in an unabashedly miraculous manner, outside of the channels and power structures of legacy Christianity, by an angel of glory, prepared in advance by a visitation of God the Father and Jesus Christ, standing together. It is written on gold plates. It is chock full of embedded signatures of authenticity, and it confirms the messages of the Bible, including the nature of God, and His son, Jesus Christ.
With regard to Point 3 above, the possibility of a change in perspective changing everything: is that a spirit is an entity that has shape and substance, and that can be visible to mortals under circumstances of great faith. One key bit of knowledge from the Book of Mormon, that is transformative to our understanding of spirit and spiritual things, is a specific incidence in which a man, interacting with the pre-mortal Jesus, saw His spirit.
“And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.” Ether 3:6
Jesus said it was because of the unprecedented faith of the individual:
“And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. Ether 3: 15-16
This knowledge of the shape and “substance” of spirits, and the relationship of premortal spirits to physical bodies, is profound. This changes how we think about both bodies and spirits. (I will have a lot more to say about the faith/science implications of spirit/body issues at another time.)
If you believe any of the Bible, lets talk about the nature of God. The Bible has numerous statements of the nature of God, listed succinctly below. Consider these statements in the context of a premortal Jesus (the Old Testament Jehovah, or God), who had a spirit body, that has the appearance His future physical body.
• Enoch walked with God, Gen. 5:24.
• Jacob: I have seen God face to face, Gen. 32:30.
• (Seventy-four Elders of Israel) saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, andas it were the body of heaven in his clearness, Ex. 24:10.
• And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God, Deut 9:10
• And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, Deut 34:10
• And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle. … With him (Moses) will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lordshall he behold: Num. 12:5-8
• upon the … throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man, Ezek. 1:26
• And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4
• the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:14.
• This is my beloved Son, Matt. 3:17
• he which is of God, he hath seen the Father, John 6:46.
• the Son of man standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:56.
• God was manifest in the flesh, 1 Tim. 3:16.
• His eyes were as a flame of fire, Rev. 19:12.
• I saw also the Lord … high and lifted up, Isa. 6:1
• I saw the Lord standing upon the altar, Amos 9:1
• he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
• Nine occasions in the New Testament in which humanity are called the “Children of God”.
In the Book of Mormon, and other modern scripture, there are many other statements of the nature of God:
• Isaiah … verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen Him, 2 Ne. 11:2
• saw God sitting upon his throne, 1 Ne. 1:8 (Alma 36:22).
• he verily saw my Redeemer, 2 Ne. 11:2.
• God himself shall come down among the children of men, Mosiah 15:1.
• the light of the glory of God, Alma 19:6.
• they saw a Man descending out of heaven, 3 Ne. 11:8.
• I have seen my Redeemer, Alma 19:13
• You are redeemed … therefore I show myself unto you, Ether 3:13
• I have seen Jesus … face to face, Ether 12:39.
• therefore he saw Jesus, Ether 3:20
• come in a cloud with power and great glory, D&C 34:7.
• we saw him, even on the right hand of God, D&C 76:23.
• We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork, D&C 110:2.
• he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, D&C 133:20.
• Lord … shall stand in the midst of his people, D&C 133:25.
• he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, Moses 1:2.
• Lord appeared unto me, Abr. 2:6.
• Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, Abr. 3:11.
• I saw two Personages … standing above me in the air, JS—H 1:17.
Now, if LAF&SF members reject the miraculous, I wonder what the basis for their faith is? Is it in the philosophies and scholarly writings of Origen, Ptolemy, Marion, Tertullian, Augustine, Clement, and dozens of others that wrestled with the philosophical and religious problems of the first hundreds of years after the Apostles? These included the mingling of numerous philosophies with various religions, including Judaism and Christianity. These scholars and leaders unambiguously had great divides of opinion, and policy. They wrestled and debated and strove with each other for influence and power. However, NONE of these claimed revelation from God, nor based their authority on miraculous power from God. In fact, they claimed that the time of miracles and revelation had passed. Why? Because they had none! The claim of a closed Heaven was a fig leaf to cover their nakedness of authority.
If we go back to the Biblical situation, the Jewish power brokers of the times of Moses, Elijah, David, or Jesus claimed authority, and that claim was refuted only by the miraculous, in favor of God’s appointed representatives, not by arguments, councils, or letters.
I am sure that all of the authoritative prophets and apostles throughout history have been questioned by their peers. The New testament is very detailed in describing the process whereby the authority of Jesus was validated.
Joseph Smith, Jr. like other prophets was doubted, but had the power of God, to do God’s work.
Witnesses: “I never saw any one, until I met Joseph Smith, who could tell me anything about the character, personality and dwelling-place of God, or anything satisfactory about angels, or the relationship of man to his Maker.” -Brigham Young
I have my own witnesses of Joseph Smith as a true prophet: Two of my ancestors, Welcome Chapman of Readsboro, Pennsylvania and James Richey of Pickens, Alabama, both heard of Joseph Smith as young men. The both had questions about what they heard, and personally investigated. I have their accounts.
– Welcome Chapman rode his horse 400+ of miles to find Joseph in 1830, just as the Church was organized. They were the same age. Welcome stayed two weeks with Joseph’s family, and then brought his wife and children to Palmira, NY and continued with the Saints for the rest of his life. He was fully convinced of the authenticity of Joseph Smith.
⁃ James Richey, in 1844, joined the Church after he had received powerful spiritual testimonies of it. He was told by relatives about rumors of Joseph Smith and the Saints in Nauvoo, so he personally traveled the 600+ miles by boat, on river steamers, from Alabama to Nauvoo. Joseph Smith asked him to spend the night. He then spent a couple of weeks in Nauvoo investigating, and then, convinced, went back to Alabama and brought his extended family to Nauvoo, and then went West with the Saints. He was fully convinced of the authenticity of Joseph Smith.
I showed you the scientifically-compelling evidences for the authenticity of the deeply-Christian Book of Mormon. They were profound. You considered them so compelling as to be proselytory! You were horrified. You demanded I remove any discussion of the miraculous, of visions, of revelation, from my talk. I did that. But even with only the scientific evidences alone, you found the presentation still too compelling and would not allow me to present it. Now, if you reject the miraculous as evidence of truth and of God’s power in our faith discussions, there is really no point to have our forum.
Thank you for your willingness to read this. I do not know how to make it shorter, and still complete.
I look forward to your faithful, thoughtful, and scientific responses.
Gary Stradling
Faith Illuminating Science--Science Illuminating Faith 